I read Judi Mayne’s article, "Show Faith Not Fear" , today over at FaithInTheWorkplace.com. She begins, "The book of Daniel is the story of four young men who find the power to stay true to themselves and to their God while living in an alien culture that opposes their faith."
This is a fine summary of Daniel’s time in Babylon, but I disagree with the parallel she makes between Daniel and contemporary Christians in America. "As believers," she writes, "we live in an ‘alien’ culture. Discrimination and ridicule from those who find our faith threatening should come as no surprise."
She’s right that we shouldn’t be surprised, but it isn’t because we live in an alien culture. We aren’t surrounded by "aliens"; rather, we have alienated those around us. The majority of persecution suffered by Christians in America comes from stinking at being Christians in America.
As David Kinnaman and Gabe Lyons write in unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity…and Why It Matters , "The primary reason outsiders feel hostile toward Christians, and especially conservative Christians, is not because of any specific theological perspective. What they react negatively to is our ’swagger,’ how we go about things and the sense of self-importance we project. Outsiders say that Christians possess bark – and bite" (26).
If you’ve ever faced persecution on the job, was it because of alien, or alienated, co-workers?
{ 22 comments… read them below or add one }
I agree that many Christians in America do stink at being Christians in America.
Not too sure I agree with the “primary reason outsiders feel hostile towards Christians” though.
I’m with Lorrie. Yes many Christians, sometimes even me, stink at living as a Christian. I think the primary reason for the hostility however comes from our not conforming with “alien” standards, as the “Show Faith not Fear” article suggests. I know I become hostile when my sins are pointed out to me. Yet God in loving grace calls me to repentence and restoration and I receive His forgiveness. I allow Him to pick me up and set me on the path of righteousness. I am no longer hostile but humbly grateful. There is where the difference is between a believer and the culture around us is seen.
lorrie, i agree that there may be other contributing factors, but it seems that this one – if it isn’t the direct culprit – is at least indirectly involved as an accomplice. for example, you might get harassed at work for no apparent reason, only to find that a christian before you left a bad taste in your opponent’s mouth.
i can’t put all my money on “primary,” but it’s tough to refute since their conclusions were based upon thousands of interviews.
thanks for tuning in.
Sam, I know I’ve seen plenty of swagger–and even swaggered a bit myself. For me, the principle challenge my church faces is that we always act like we know what other people need from us.
We think–hey, let’s give food to the poor. Let’s give clothes. Let’s put on a play. Let’s have a free dinner. These things can be good, don’t misunderstand. But how often do we simply go out into the community and ask, “How can we help?”
If we never ask that question, we are certainly alienating ourselves.
i attend a big and active church. we are slowly but surely moving out into the community, but the historic default has been to invite others to us: join our church softball, our church girl scouts, our church festivals, our church cheerleading, our….
despite the hospitable and invitational elements, this is another type of swagger that says, “world, your version of all these activities is wrong. ours is right.”
it doesn’t mean we can’t have church things, but when church things just end up being cleaned-up versions of what’s already out there, i think it sends a message.
I read Judi Mayne’s article and really could not disagree with her like you did on the parallel she makes between Daniel living in Babylon and Christians living in an “alienated” culture, for that matter anywhere in this world. Judi was careful to place the word “alien’ within quotation marks to show she was refering to a concept she would define. And I think she defined it well within a Christian perspective.
Judi did not manufacture the concept but simply was expressing the way Jesus Christ Himself and several other Scripture passages describe the relationship between Christians and the world.
Jesus said this: “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also” (John 15:18-20).
Those who apologize for antagonism against Christians as a result of Christian “stinkiness” reflect just what Jesus forewarned His followers about concerning the world’s antagonism. The fact is if certain Christian behaviour is perceived as stinkiness one who understands Christianity would conclude either the behaviour was wrongly assumed Christian but it really had nothing to do with true Christian behaviour or the Christian behaviour was labeled stink simply within the general snob of the anti-Christian attitude Jesus said is in the world.
For the record, Judi Mayne is a close friend of the Foundation that runs TheHighCalling.org, HighCallingBlogs.com, Laity Lodge, Free Camps, and Laity Lodge Youth Camp. In fact, her husband is the director of Laity Lodge Youth Camps.
I love her article–after all, I chose to publish it on FaithInTheWorkplace.com (he brags with a swagger…)
That said, I think Sam is onto something. The church needs to do a better job. And frankly, we need to take the chip off of our shoulder.
But PoemaDei has a good point too. This doesn’t mean we start playing the role of victim who apologizes for getting attacked. We need to stand up boldly for our faith, defending it from the way some new atheist groups are simplifying and dismissing it.
One thing that might serve Christians well, though. We should stop pretending like we are persecuted. In America at least, the vast majority of us are not. And if we continue to act like we are persecuted, we only alienate ourselves.
PoemiaDei, thanks for the comments. i’m not sure what to think about persecution in other parts of the world. christians endure awful things at times, and as marcus said, we don’t know it here like others do there.
i’ve worked in hostile environments in the u.s. in fact, i remember how my co-workers in a roofing company used to accuse me of being “one of those church boys” because i spoke differently and even talked them into listening to chuck swindoll one morning instead of the local rock station. ha! ha!
their carrying on was relentless in the beginning because they assumed i was judging them or that i was just like tv preachers. but once they got to know me (and i calmed down), things began to change. they needed to see that i was real, that i loved them, and that we all wanted similar things in life: a secure job, fair treatment, a sense of purpose….
my swagger did offend at times, especially when i made them feel like my projects, but i learned to be more genuine. and they came to respect me because of our friendships.
referencing my previous comment, when christians isolate themselves from others, we lose personal contact with non-christians. it’s easy for them (atheist groups, the aclu…) to throw stones at stereotypes, but it’s difficult to throw stones at friends.
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sorry for the long reply, but i have one other thought. this one is relatively new for me and i’m interested in further study.
i think Jesus was talking in john 15 about the disciples interactions with other jews, not the gentiles. i can’t remember too many times when gentiles hated Jesus. of course, there were the gentiles who told him to go away after he healed the demon-possessed man, but then, Jesus had just cost them 2000 pigs. i might have asked him to leave, too.
i see this same vein in matthew 10 as well. Jesus told the disciples they would face persecution from other jews. Jesus was a threat to the jewish traditions and reverential understanding of God being God. blasphemy was a serious violation, and the people simply couldn’t grasp Jesus’ seemingly blasphemous claims.
thoughts?
A life of prayer and righteousness will earn us discrimination and ridicule? Are you kidding me? If it is, then I would bet that it’s because the Christian in question is behaving in a ridiculous manner, not because of their righteous character. I’ve been in business for 20 years and have found that most people in the work world are hungering for ethical, moral, even righteous examples of leadership.
Those who know me know that I have no patience for Christians who complain about their offense at the “secular” marketplace. If we are supposed to be salt, then that means we are IN THE MEAT! Not standing back and cringing about how hostile the meat smells! This whole deal with spiritual “insiders” and “outsiders” irks me.
I am more offended by the Christians who are so deeply entrenched within their spiritual subculture that they have little to no impact on their work environment… and yes, alienating everyone around them. Tell me how that furthers the kingdom of God?
Sorry for the rant, it’s probably more than what is necessary!
the subculture irks me, too, brad. i’ve spent most of my life in it or really close to it, and it does seem to be a rather trepid way of responding to the great commission.
i must confess, though, that i’m not nearly as gutsy as Jesus. he was free to say what he needed to say and what people needed to hear (all in love) because he wasn’t wrapped up in what people thought of him. but i am.
p.s. your comment may have been a bit ranty, as you admitted, but i’m glad for your honesty, and your engagement in the conversation.
No worries, Brad. Ranting is your schtick, right?
Does anyone want to know my secret fear? Well, I’m going to tell you anyway.
I don’t want this network to become just another online subculture. The place where Christian bloggers can isolate themselves…
We’re here to encourage each other and share ideas, so we can go out and be good bloggers who honor God in what we do online.
Well, the secret’s out. Let’s not become an enclave here.
The beauty of unity with diversity is what we all seem to be advocating here. A point highlighted in the discussion is the importance of tolerance of differences. We all are individual products of our own subcultures. Let’s not kid ourselves. It is just that if our voices are loudest or our style has gained the most popularity in a particular environment, we can tag the label of subculture on the different others as an evil.
Another point, “Christian” is mentioned in this discussion as though one is a Christian because he or she professes to be or I or you assume them to be. Let us not forget the concept of a Christian is derived from the Gospel. And the Gospel does lay plain indicators what manner of life a true Christian reflects. With regard to our discussion, one of the characterisitcs of a Christian is tolerance. So that may settle the question of “Christians” being intolerant and that being a main reason for people being alienated by Christians. And it’s good for those who expect tolerance from others to be tolerant of others too, even if these others are not tolerant.
But this is only one of the characteristics of a Christian presented in the Gospel. If we look at the prevailing life-style of so many in our world today, in any country, Paul’s description of the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:19-21 would certainly make a subculture of all who are spiritual and will not practice the works of the flesh.
But we must all coexist on this planet. And to acknowledge and respect the differences in others does not need conforming or hatred just characteristic Christian tolerance. But tolerance needs to be reciprocated to allow Christians to be different and express their differences.
I completely agree with your concern about Christians isolating themselves. The rhetoric of being “alien” and “counter-cultural” has some valid roots, but the language itself can also create more alienation. We need to interact, be out in the world, to build trust and understanding. Thank you for putting it out there.
Funny thing is we tend focus more on the alien nature of those who don’t conform to our ideas and preferences than we do on the fact that, from what I’ve read in the Word, we’re supposed to be the aliens.
I participate with some others in my church in a ministry specifically focused on aliens in my community – Latino immigrants who work our dairy farms. They have the “alien” perspective down pretty pat – they know they are out of their element, not in their home culture. There’s a dependence and humility that rises straight out of that. I’ve yet to see them swagger.
If as believers we could nail down what it really is to be an alien, we’d have less room to swagger and a whole lot more tolerance and grace to extend to others who don’t share our faith.
I Peter 2:11-12 Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
marcus, if we all share your secret fear, will that make us an on-line subculture?
sorry, that struck me as humorous.
i just spent three hours with an out-of-state friend who works for a very large corporation. (really, i just walked in the door and was more interested in checking in on this convo than on eating dinner.) i had to ask him if he is ever persecuted at work. he said he thinks he’d be higher up on the food chain if he drank more beer.
i’m not sure how serious he was, but it’s true that a different lifestyle has natural isolating effects – until that different lifestyle finds other different lifestyles just like it, of course. birds of a feather….
i think marcus’ comment about avoiding becoming a subculture is a challenging one, whether here at high calling blogs or in my work department or in my baby-sitting club. subculture formation is correlated to the degree that folks connect with each other. if members remain superficial, avoiding subculture tendencies is easy; if members interact significantly, a subculture will naturally form with shared language and inside jokes and commonly-held standards, etc.
ideally, people can interact significantly without isolating themselves, which is challenging to any community.
I wasn’t going as deep as might be suspected. I was quickly “pondering” and my mind went directly to this verse:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Reading over the other comments, I must concur that we often do give the wrong impression and come across as self righteous sometimes. A terrible shame to be sure. We should be known by our love and a humble spirit, considering others of more value than ourselves. Love may cut through the perceptions of foolishness and circumvent the blocking put up by the ego. Perhaps then, others can detect the sound of gentle knocking on the door of their heart.
If there be any swagger in me, I pray the Lord’s pardon. I should never intend to be a stumbling block but only a vessel standing aside as a light pointing to Jesus.
I cannot but perceive from some of these comments an expectation that Christians should always be pleasing to people in the world. It is obvious that few people want to be unpleasing to others. And genuine Christians do not set out to displease the people with whom they interact.
Nonetheless, let us not forget the purpose of God in making mankind Christians is to lift us up from a lifestyle considered sinful and in enmity against Him. Moreover, the Scriptures characterize this ungodly lifestyle as the general lifestyle of the world. I think the dilemma that confronts Christians living in the midst of this world is in relation to people who uncaringly show off their worldly lifestyle. Christians must be loving, kind, and tolerant with such people and at the same not be approving or compromising with their ungodly lifestyle.
The Scriptures definitely highlight a fundamental limitation in understanding a life-style shaped by the Spirit by the natural man or who the Scriptures define as being unregenerate or not born again of the Spirit . This is brought out plainly in the Scripture passage quoted by Lorrie in 1Corinthians 2:14: “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
So Christians are urged and are given personal graces from God to live peaceably and kindly with all men. But let us face the reality that there are fundamental limitations in the world’s ability to accept and understand the Christian lifestyle. And that usually is a major reason for alienation between Christians and some people of the world.
And so, the good Christian may not necessarily be the popular one. We just cannot squarely blame alienation from others towards Christians on Christian stinkiness. But like some of the comments advise, let the antagonism or alienation faced in the world by those of us who live the Christian lifestyle results not from our own non-Christian behaviour.
thanks, all, for the good conversation. it stimulated my thinking this week and i actually took the “alien or alienated” question to my sunday school class. i didn’t push an agenda but simply asked the question and facilitated a conversation around the reasons for persecution in matthew 10 (from the jews) and mark 5:1-20 (from the gentiles) after they read judi mayne’s article.
it was a lively discussion with very similar viewpoints and “sides” as there were here.
happy new year to you!
Law alienates. Grace reconciles.
Be ye “reconciled” (through J–>C)–>to God.
Grace –> Mercy –> Peace to you all. Amen.
Yes, indeed, grace reconciles. It actually reconciles sinful man to God. It does that not by compromising God’s standards but by transforming sinful man from an ungodly lifestyle to one which pleases God.
The dilemma being discussed here really arises from the fact that not all men are willing to be reconciled to God when that involves a change of their ungodly lifestyle. As a result, those who are reconciled become inevitably, according to the Scriptures, aliens and strangers in the world (1Peter 2:11).
In fact, the Scriptures describethe world and those who adopt worldly life-styles as being in enmity against God. ” Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God” (James 4:4).
So, there is a reality of alienation, supported in the Scriptures, between Christians and people with “worldly” lifestyles that must not be ignored in the discussion. However, the onus is upon us Christians to exercise the characteristic Christian qualities of tolerance and love by the grace of God to all, including those who hate us, revile us, and persecute us. But certainly there is a limit – we cannot compromise with the world to avoid being alienated.
Paul was definitely not being stinky when he admonished followers of Christ in Romans 12:1-2: “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.”
I stumbled in here accidently but can’t resist adding my two cents as a non-believer (in the things you believe in, I won’t trouble you with what I believe). Some of you seem pretty sincere but to me the whole vibe of this thread exudes a kind of smug superficiality.
Why would I or others like me ever … ever, consider listening to a point of view in which there can be no conversation and that is guarded so vigilantly against contamination.
The truth, I suspect, is that most “Christians” don’t really much love anything other than being right and making others wrong, they don’t want to elevate their fellow they want to be elevated over him. or maybe they just love to feel that they are a part of a special minority that is so poorly treated by an unfair world that will shortly be punished for failing to heed their warnings.
If Jesus were here in the flesh today he would mock the sanctimonious Pharisees that go by the name Christian today. Christianity is becoming marginal in America a trend that I am overjoyed about, because Christianity has almost nothing to do with Christ and almost everything to do with Ego.
If you feel attacked or insulted by what I say then consider that one who turns the other cheek has already removed himself from the realms of defeat and victory.
Brian, I had to return to this archived post today, and realized that you had left a good response to which I never replied. You probably won’t get this message, so I’ll just say thanks for reading and offering the feedback. Take care!